The rambling thoughts of a Modern Orthodox Chassid (whatever that means). Contact me at emansouth @

Wednesday, August 09, 2006

A Question for Dov Bear

I assume that you do not say the tefilah for Medinat Yisrael since it begins, "Avinu Shebashamayim" (Our Father in Heaven (or, more literally, Our Father in the Sky)).

That would be kefirah, no?



  • At 10:01 AM, Blogger בטל בששים said…

    Not a problem, because he has a different nusach: Aviynu Sheba'garbayim :-)

  • At 10:33 AM, Blogger MoChassid said…

    lol....But it would still be kefirah. Shamayim, garbayim, no difference.

  • At 1:11 PM, Blogger DovBear said…

    Snort. Do you really think that tefillah means that God lives in heaven? Per the Rambam imagining that God has a location is 100 percent kefirah. Thet's indisputable.

  • At 4:48 PM, Blogger OutOfTheBox said…

    Dov Bear:
    im not denying that you are quoting the Rambar perfectly...however, have you forgotten that yiddushkeit consists of many opinions? there have been MANY Kabbalists that have completely disagreed. are you going to say that they are being kofrim? OOD was not implying that Hashem is physically sitting up there somewhere....rather its a mashal... Hashem is above and beyond us. If people would stop being makpid for others and start concentrating on their own maasim then the world would be a much better place.

  • At 6:28 PM, Blogger DovBear said…

    If people would stop being makpid for others and start concentrating on their own maasim then the world would be a much better place.

    Going around with socks uncovered is a lav. Denying Gods incorpreality is a dioraysah, and kefirah. But which one do you think gets the local god squads excited?

    I don't have anything against OOD, but it should be clear that the Jewish people have their priorities seriously messed up on issues like this.

    there have been MANY Kabbalists that have completely disagreed. are you going to say that they are being kofrim?

    According to the Rambam they are kofrim. Look, if you want to argue that the ikaarim aren't so important, I'll agree with you. The trouble is that 21st century Judaism has made a fetish out of some of them while ignoring others. Take for example the 8th. If I were to deny one letter of the Torah, the combined might of orthodox Judaism would come raining down on my head. SO why are we so leniant with the 3rd?

    They are both ikaarim. If we can play fast and loose with one, why not the other?

  • At 8:48 PM, Blogger OutOfTheBox said…

    dov bear:
    I completely understand your point. however I think that you are missing out on something. people dont jump down eachother's throats when they say something like "Hashem is shamayim" or the famous Uncle moishy song (Hashem is here Hashem is there etc)because they don't really mean what they are saying. While the idea can be dangrous, people simply are trying to convey the idea that Hashem controls everything...they just don't really have the words to express it. As I said before, they don't literally mean that Hashem is in a physical place. now if they did, that would be a different story. Rambam is coming from a intellectual, rational approach and is attacking the diea of Hashem's PHYSICAL existence. however, in the "spiritual" realm, when we are referring to Hashem's "Schina", most of us hold like the ramban, who said chas veshalom that you should hold like the rambam (on the interpretation of a certain posuk). Basically you guys are both right in your own way and are not really fighting over the same issue.

  • At 8:50 PM, Blogger MoChassid said…


    What does snort mean? What is the difference between saying "G-d who is in heaven (the sky)" and pointing to the sky in response to a question, where is G-D?

    Put another way, one says G-d who is in heaven the other says G-d is in heaven.

    What am I missing?

  • At 10:49 AM, Blogger DovBear said…

    According to the Rambam anyone who assigns a physical atribute (such as a location) to god is a kofer.

    The prayer (1)means something else,(2)is kefirah or (3) relies on a kula, ie, someone other than the Rambam.

    I hope it's not (3). It would make me sad to learn that a family of people who insist on the chumra of dressing like chasidm and the chumra of going to the mikva every week are relying on a leniancy when it comes to kefira.

  • At 11:14 AM, Blogger DovBear said…

    Rambam Hilchis Techuva, Chapter 3:

    And these are the ones that have no share in the world to come... a min.

    5 are called min.... one who says there is a God but there are two or more, and one who says there is one God but he posseses a form or a body

    ואלו שאין להן חלק לעולם הבא, אלא
    נכרתין ואובדין, ונידונין על גודל רשעם וחטאתם, לעולם ולעולמי עולמים: המינים, והאפיקורוסים, והכופרים בתורה, והכופרים בתחיית המתים, והכופרים בביאת הגואל, והמשומדים, ומחטיאי הרבים, והפורשים מדרכי ציבור, והעושה עבירות ביד רמה בפרהסיה כיהויקים, והמוסרים, ומטילי אימה על הציבור שלא לשם שמיים, ושופכי דמים, ובעלי לשון הרע, והמושך עורלתו.

    טו [ז] חמישה הן הנקראין מינים: האומר שאין שם אלוה, ואין לעולם מנהיג; והאומר שיש שם מנהיג, אבל הם שניים או יתר; והאומר שיש שם ריבון אחד, אלא שהוא גוף ובעל תמונה; וכן האומר שאינו לבדו ראשון וצור לכול; וכן העובד אלוה זולתו, כדי להיות מליץ בינו ובין ריבון העולמים. כל אחד מחמישה אלו מין

  • At 1:05 PM, Blogger OutOfTheBox said…

    Dov Bear:
    once again you are completetly missing the point. You can qutoe as much Rambam as you want, but the fact is that is not how much people hold today. not becuase they are being meikeel, but because they are holding by the Ramban and many others who agree with them. Ie. you can say that Hashem resides somewhere, so to speak, like the beis hamkidash. yes, you are a min if you believe that Hashem has a physical form. Maybe im wrong, but I have no recollection of ANYONE ever saying that. OOD did NOT claim that Hashem actually is physical (chas veshalom). She was simply relating to Hashem in a way that the baby, and most people for that matter, can understand. If you can't see that this is different then ALL of the rambam's that you keep quoting then there is nothing else to say.


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